Playing with flash

[Justin]

I started to discover last night how using the flash helps with colour and sharpness. My second post today of a not particularly interesting picture but more technique

SB800 as remote on the ground to the right of the tree and also flash from the pop-up in commander mode. One problem I had (even with fresh batteries) was getting an inconsistent result from the flash (without changing the power output) sometimes I got little flash and sometimes almost a completely high-key result.

Nikon D200 ,Nikkor 18-200mm F/3.5-5.6g IF-ED AF-S DX VR
1/100s f/4.2 at 35.0mm iso100 with Flash

Any commentary on settings or technique? No diffuser was used.

[Blackspear]

Hi Justin how did you do this, I have set up commander mode on the D200, but don't know what to set up on the SB800 and Ken Rockwells site only gives the SB600 settings: http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/ittlslave.htm

Cheers

[Justin]

Hi,

it's not bl**dy obvious took me ages to figure out.

there is a thumbpad - hold down the 'sel' key for at least two second. If it doesn't come up with a menu you haven't pushed it down right (takes me an average of 3 attempts 'cos it's on the thumbpad)

This will bring up the menu. on the left are two columns of square boxes
1 2
3 4
5 6

etc.

Note they scroll of the screen so there are even more options can't remember what they go to.

Go to box '2' and hit 'sel'. this will take you over to the menu on the right of the display. scroll down to 'remote' and hit 'sel' again.

To get out of the menu can't remember I think I just turned the darn thing off and on again.

Now the display should show ' remote' and a channel (1 is the default I think out of 4). Make sure your camera is set to use the same channel

To switch out of remote back to normal, all I remember is it;s the first item in the menu from box '2'.


Clear as mud?

[Blackspear]

Clear as mud?

Clear as mud I have it all sorted, just about to try syncing a 2nd SB800 as well. I have a job to shoot a fleet of trucks and vans for a freight company in the next week or so, this will come in handy for a few test shots

Cheers

[Laurie]

remote mode is good, but its hard to get 'artistic' shadows because the on board flash fires and fills the scene where shadows might be.

what i wanna know is how to get the flash to strobe (flash repeatedly) over a long exposure.

cant work it out

[Blackspear]

Damn that is magic, have the on-camera flash synced with two SB-800 flash units, and it works as sweet as pie.

Cheers

[Justin]

hey Laurie,

Set the camera to 'commander' mode in flash

Then you will see four banks of options, the first I think is 'onboard' and then Group A, B, C.

You can change the onboard to not fire.

This is on a D200 of course.

[owen]

remote mode is good, but its hard to get 'artistic' shadows because the on board flash fires and fills the scene where shadows might be.

Laurie, from my experience if you jack up the aperture you'll reduce the effect that the onboard flash has as it can't cope as well as the speedlights.

[Justin]

two SB-800s - jealous - I had plenty of ideas how I could use multiple SB800 after last night!

[Blackspear]

two SB-800s - jealous - I had plenty of ideas how I could use multiple SB800 after last night!

Mate, as I said, perfect timing for me, glad you had this thread, and once you know how, it is so simple

Cheers

[MCWB]

One comment: you can probably afford to jack up the ISO at least a couple of stops, if not more. This will lessen the effect of the flashes and increase the effect of the ambient light; alternatively you could stop the lens down more.

[ABG]

Trent, stopping down the lens (eg. from f8 to f11) will let in less light, therefore decreasing the effect of ambient light.

[MCWB]

Indeed, I didn't phrase that well. What I meant was that you could stop down the lens more for increased sharpness, then keep the same balance of ambient:flash by increasing the ISO.

[ABG]

Doh! Misunderstood your meaning completely Trent

By the way, does anyone know whether it's possible to independantly alter the EV of 2 separate flashes when they're being used remotely on a D70? If so, how?

[gstark]

Andrew,

Yes, but it depends upon the flash units.

While the SB800 certainly offers this facility, the controller functionality on the D70 is partially lobotomised and so I don't think this is possible using, say, multiple SB800s and iTTL.

But if you switch to A mode, this can be done.

[ABG]

Thanks Gary,

I'll have a play around with that tonight.

[beetleboy]

One interesting thing I've discovered with the D200 and SB800 combo is that even if you switch the onboard flash to -- and use an off-camera flash; the onboard flash still fires during exposure. It's no where near as apparent as it was on the D70 but if you want to see what I mean, take a photo of a mirror with that setup.

I've resorted to using my left hand to direct the onboard flash away from my subject and towards my off camera SB800.

If anyone has a workaround for this prob, I'd love to know about it!

[DVEous]

... Obsolete ...

[Justin]

Two things here -

By default the onboard flash is on even when controlling a remote SB800.

If you do turn off the onboard flash, it still flashes as something has to tell the remote what to do (and it ain't radio waves .

[beetleboy]

I completely understand that Justin..

What I don't understand is why the onboard flash must fire during the exposure? Doesn't it go something like this?:

Onboard flash: *bang* is there a SB?00 out there?

SB?00: *receive* ooh hello, you look like my Master *bang* I'm here and I'm an SB800 (and proud of it)!

Onboard flash: *receive* good-o chap, now fire at 1/4 power *flick-flick-bang*

SB800: *receive* *bang at 1/4 power* - job well done!!

Ok, so obviously that's no where near accurate and with TTL and what not there would be a lot more going back and forth but according to the above scenario - why does the onboard flash need to fire during the exposure? It does fire..I've had the little bugger add hours to my PP time cos I didn't notice it in the heat of the battle/job!!

[gstark]

The communication is, to my knowledge, handled via IR. There's an IR window on the camera, and one on the side of the SB800.

The preflashes are used to help determine the correct exposre, I believe.

[Justin]

thanks Gary - - I shoulda read my manual again!

[usmcss1]

I just purchased the SB-800 and to check if the on board flash has any effect on the subject when using the sb-800 in remote mode I took my D70s in a low lit area and set A to f-22, I set the D70s to Command Mode and turned the SB-800 off. I took a photo, the flash fired and the photo was dark. I then turned the camera to Flash Mode and took a photo in the same area and it was perfectly exposed.

That showed me that the on board flash had no effect on the photo when in Command Mode which you would use with the SB-800

Semper Fi,

Bob

[gstark]

That showed me that the on board flash had no effect on the photo when in Command Mode which you would use with the SB-800

Oh that it were that simple.

There's a few different ways to trigger off-camera flash units from a D70.

This is a very complex area, and the SB800 manual, through its multitude of pages, only serves to confuse everyone.

Have you set the channels etc on the SB800 to match the D70?

When you were in Command Mode, you say the on-camera flash fired and the image was dark. How large was the area within which you made the image? At f/22 and ISO 200 you don't need a very large area to start getting underexposed images.

IIRC, with the camera in iTTL mode, you are easily able to control the SB800 remotely.

The SB800 is very complex: I've had mine for two years, and I've barely scratched the surface of its capabilities.

[usmcss1]

Hello Gary,

I think you misunderstood my post. I was just trying to point out that the built in flash on the d70 does not effect the subject when you are using the SB-800 in remote mode. I was trying to explain how I came to this conclusion. I set the A to F22 in Command Mode because I wanted to see if the built in flash would illuminate the subject, which it didn't, proving that the built in flash does not effect the subject when using the SB-800 in Remote mode. I turned the SB-800 off because if I didn't it would have illuminated the subject and there would have been no way to know if the built in flash had any effect.

Have I confused this matter even more?

I have no problem using the SB-800, it works great!

Semper Fi,

Bob

[owen]

I believe that if you set a wider aperture then you do notice the built-in flash moreso.

[gstark]

Hi Bob,

I think you misunderstood my post.

No, I knew exactly the point you're trying to make.

My point is that I don't think that your test achieves the goals that you believe it has.

At F/22 and ISO200, you don't need a lot of distance between the camera and subject for the on camera to become ineffective. At those settings, anything greater than about a meter or two and the on-camera flash's output won't register anyway, and thus the test may not have proven what you set out to do.

In order to perhaps more properly perform the test, start with the camera on a tripod. Have somebody (or something) set about a meter from the camera and within the field of view of the camera.

Make some test images using the onboard flash in iTTL mode, and at a variety of apertures.

Next, place the SB800 somewhere, facing the same subject.

Set the camera into Command mode, turn off the SB800, and then reshoot everything that you did in the first part.

Next, repeat this exercise, this time with the SB800 turned on.

Finally, repeat the previous test, with the SB800 turned on, but dialed down to -2 stops.

I think you'kl find this to be a much more informative exercise.

Cheers, and have fun.

[rflower]

I have a D50, and I am thinking about getting a SB800 sometime. It would seem that the D50 can use the SB800 (according to the manual).

Is commander mode when the external flash is used like a slave unit, and the onboard flash fires the external one(s)?

Does anyone know if the d50 can be set to use the SB800 in commander mode?

Should I even worry about getting the SB800 with the D50?

Thanks

Russell

[beetleboy]

Russell I'm not sure about the D50's ability to control SB's wirelessly.

I do know for sure tho that the onboard flash doesn't have much of an effect on the exposure in Commander mode but it definitely does fire while the shutter is open..not a problem in most situations but if you have a reflective surface in front of you (a great situation to use the flash off-camera) then you'll get a bright reflection from the D70 onboard flash firing. Bugs the hell outta me as it seems completely unneccessary.

[usmcss1]

Right on target Owen. It does seem to have an effect at a wider Aperture.

Gary, your experiment is perfect for proving that the flash does in fact have an effect. The biggest thing this has taught me is "NOT TO OPEN MY BIG MOUTH UNTIL I HAVE PERFORMED MORE THEN ONE EXPERIMENT."

Thanks for locking me on Gary.

Now that I know the on board flash does effect the subject I am not to happy about that. I guess it's not that big a deal but as Bettleboy said it can cause problems in certain Situations.

Thanks!

[Yi-P]

Is commander mode when the external flash is used like a slave unit, and the onboard flash fires the external one(s)?

Commander mode means that your camera or flash is set to control other flash units set in remote/slave modes. Does not necessary mean that the onboard flash will serve as a secondary flash apart from the remote flash. Whilst this can be set, but only on the D200 and D80 modules. The D70 module can trigger wireless flash with TTL metering, but the built-in flash does not contribute to the exposure.

Does anyone know if the d50 can be set to use the SB800 in commander mode?

I dont think the D50 have a commander mode with the built-in flash. You must first get a SB800 on top before commander-ing other remote flashes.

Should I even worry about getting the SB800 with the D50?

Yes, even when you cannot have the option (yet) to fire off the SB800 wireless, there is no reason why not to buy it.

With the SB800 on top of the D50, the lighting and flash output + result is far beyond your expectation (in the good ways). Not until you get one, try it out in a good use, and let your jaws drop down on the ground.

[asaroha]

I'm pretty sure I heard somewhere that d50's built in flash(or any other flash) can trigger the sb800 wirelessly, only in full manual mode however.

A little bit OT : but at what angle should I set my flashhead for outdoor fill-flash (No ceiling to bounce)? This is with an omnibounce, which manual reccomends setting it to 45deg for all purpose.

[beetleboy]

I've found that with the omnibounce attached you can pretty much point your flash at your subject as long as you have it dialed down a fair chunk. Otherwise 45deg works too - I see a lot of Newspaper photogs who seem to think their flash heads can't move from that position!

[gstark]

Bob,

Thanks for locking me on Gary.

No worries.

Now that I know the on board flash does effect the subject I am not to happy about that. I guess it's not that big a deal but as Bettleboy said it can cause problems in certain Situations.

In practise, you will find this to not be an issue at all. The real issue is that (a) it happens, but (b) you know that it happens.

Because of point b, you can think about the images that you're going to be making, and take this into consideration. Forewarned is forearmed, as it were.

If you're willing, I have another quick exercise for you to try, and I have no idea what the results of this will be, but I think you may find it quite helpful in this particular regard.

Let's repeat the last couple of sets from the previous exercise, but we're going to change a couple more shooting parameters for you.

Start with the second last of the prior exercise: Camera in Command Mode, SB800 turned on, and set to full power.

You will remember that in the final exercise of the previous setup, we repeated that exercise with the SB800 dialed down to -2 stops. For the second part of this exercise, I want you to again repeat this exercise, but leave the SB800 and full power, and dial down the onboard flash to -2 stops FEC, and then shoot.

This final exercise will give you pretty well the final piece of data that you need to be able to understand the contribution that the onboard flash makes to your total exposure, and you can then work with that data in the future.

[Yi-P]

I'm pretty sure I heard somewhere that d50's built in flash(or any other flash) can trigger the sb800 wirelessly, only in full manual mode however.

That is the SU-4 mode on the SB800 if I'm not mistaken. It acts as a slave manual flash, but not too accurate as TTL commander if you dont know how to use it at first.

A little bit OT : but at what angle should I set my flashhead for outdoor fill-flash (No ceiling to bounce)? This is with an omnibounce, which manual reccomends setting it to 45deg for all purpose.

Pointing straight with the omnibounce can work fine with regular distances. Closer distance you may want to pitch it up by 45 deg for not so direct hotspots.