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..and is always found at Circular Quay. This was one of my entries in the B&W Spider Awards but didn't get a look in Its still one of my favourite images.



Comments and critique welcome

Sheila

I like this image very much Sheila, It's stark, graphic and compelling. The very shape of the subject grabs the attention. Great Pic.

Bob.

.

Great stuff Shelia, and for this not to get a look in there standard of work must be very high, as this is a compelling and captivating photo. It makes me feel a little cramped with the tight crop but I think the adds to the atmosphere of the shot.

I like this a lot. I spent a few hours once wandering about the Quay and city taking shots in the wee hours of the morning. I was saddened (but not surprised) at the number of homeless people.

Your image is excellent, I like the crop also, fitting him almost cramped into the shot. It seems to show the uncomfortable aspects of living on the street. Your contrast is also great.

I also like the fact we know his name, it gives the image a personal quality, rather than just a 'homeless man'

Thanks for sharing!

Great social commentary Sheila and beautifully crafted. My only coments would be to make it 'grittier'. I am left wondering if the image would benefit a from a little more of the gentleman's back showing, and I'm talking about just the smallest of margins here so that you still don't quite include the wall, or if so only a hint of it, but more of the hat and shoulders. I also think isolating the guy more from his background and the brightness at the end of his feet just a little. Maybe using a little burning to and blurring of all but the guy and that little patch of light at his feet. Don't know if I'm making sense here Sheila But I think its a spectacular image.

cheers
marco

He's got your name written on his boot!!

Sometimes there is more than technical correctness to make an image work.
I'm sorry Sheila, I know you like this pic but at the same time I'm giving you an honest opinion and bare in mind it is only one opinion.
I feel the shot is neither here nor there.
What exactly is the shot trying to say? Is he homeless? Is he a fisherman? Where is he? What is he doing? Is he asleep? Is he reaching for something in his pocket? etc. I had to ask myself all these questions.
The "ideal" photograph should not leave the viewer trying to guess a situation. Now, don't confuse this with a photograph which makes a suggestion to the viewer and then lets them interpret the outcome. Thats something else altogether different.
In this shot, there is too much vital information which needs to be told but isn't.
Technically well executed but as a showpiece, no go for me unfortunately.

Of course, I disagree Firstly, I feel it was obvious to those looking at the image that this was a homeless man, who seems to spend his day just sitting. Almost every day he is in the same spot. He certainly does not look like any fisherman that I have encountered and why do we really need to know what he is doing with his hand Do we really need to know what he is actually "doing". To me, this is an image of a homeless man who really has no life that we know of. That is why I have deliberately boxed him in (as others have noted). I know he is called Mike as I am well known to the homeless who frequent the Quay. I often buy him a meat pie which he accepts without comment.

This image is not to everyone's taste which I completely understand. I know I do tend to shoot confronting images but that is what I do Here is another shot of Mike



Sheila

Hi Sheila
I have to congratulate you on the technical quality of this print. It is excellent...though maybe a tad oversharpened. The tight composition uses the frame edge to create tension beautifully. However, I must confess I don't believe financially and socially disadvantaged homeless men should be photographed without their acknowledgement or permission. I believe they are "vulnerable" people and hence we, as photographers need to be their "protectors". I would much prefer for photographers to engage with these men, get their life story and then, with their approval, take their pictures. Then you would have something of value to share. To do otherwise robs them of what little dignity they have left. This is my opinion only, of course, and I defend your right to photograph whatever you see in a public place.

I would dearly love to do this, Matt, but in the case of Mike, he is often not approachable as he is mostly drunk, for want of a better word. On the rare occasion when he is sober, he smiles when I give him a meat pie but he is certainly not able to hold a conversation. That the State has abandoned these people is something of which we should all be ashamed. I feel its through these images that I make more fortunate people aware of their plight. BTW I would never sell any of these images. I am on first name basis with a lot of folk at the Quay and one day I will get a friend who is a doco maker, to tell their story. In the meantime, my images will show how these people really live.

Sheila

Matt. K wrote:Hi Sheila
I have to congratulate you on the technical quality of this print. It is excellent...though maybe a tad oversharpened. The tight composition uses the frame edge to create tension beautifully. However, I must confess I don't believe financially and socially disadvantaged homeless men should be photographed without their acknowledgement or permission. I believe they are "vulnerable" people and hence we, as photographers need to be their "protectors". I would much prefer for photographers to engage with these men, get their life story and then, with their approval, take their pictures. Then you would have something of value to share. To do otherwise robs them of what little dignity they have left. This is my opinion only, of course, and I defend your right to photograph whatever you see in a public place.

Matt.
One of the strengths of this forum is that we can openly discuss things from sometimes a diametrically opposed viewpoint and at the end of the day agree to disagree. I have met you,broken bread with you and consider you a friend, whereas I wouldn't know Sheila if I tripped over her.

On this particular image I have to disagree with your sentiments. It is indeed a powerful image but I don't believe Sheila has taken advantage of the subject. She has pointed out that she knows his name, has offered him kindness/charity and the opportunity to converse. If he decides to withold his life story, that is his business. Unless Sheila has some pretty huge telephoto lenses, he must of been aware that he was being photographed and consented.

This scenario has been played out here many times. Every candid is technically an invasion of privacy, however, unless Sheila says otherwise, I think this was a consented image and the social status of the subject is therefore irrelavent.

EDIT: Whilst composing this post, Sheila posted and invalidated some of my argument However, I leave it as originally posted, if only because I believe in the sentiment if not all the facts (now)

Thanks John, but he is aware that I take his photograph and does not appear to object. We are on "smiling" terms at the moment. As stated before, I do have a rapport with the homeless at the Quay and I am not being disingenous when I say that its a way of making their plight more public than it is.

Cheers
Sheila

Collingwood wrote:I'm sorry Sheila, I know you like this pic but at the same time I'm giving you an honest opinion and bare in mind it is only one opinion.

We can all bare with you, but I will also bear that in mind.

The "ideal" photograph should not leave the viewer trying to guess a situation.

With all due respect, who makes the decision about what is an "ideal" photograph?

You may hold your belief about what you feel an ideal photograph might be, but please, permit the rest of us the respect to make that determination, with respect to our own views, ourselves.

I often find that seeing a photo that asks questions, but doesn't provide the answers, to be a very satisfying experience.

johndec
I did not know that Sheila had a rapport with the subject and that changes things of course. As a photographic educator I get very disappointed when my students show me images of homeless men on park benches. My response usually is...go back out there and come back with the Prime Ministers image...or the image of someone who is powerful. Leave the soft targets alone! It is all too easy to get pics of the down and out....however, I am not saying that it is a taboo subject. I guess it's more why you do it rather than how you do it.

I love the shot. I find it very emotive and I'm quite happy for it to let me make up my own mind about the subject. I'm pleased that Sheila has made a point of personalising this experience for us with her background on Mike.

Somebody's son..somebody's brother...somebody's father...somebody's friend...nobody's responsibility?

Manta wrote:
Somebody's son..somebody's brother...somebody's father...somebody's friend...nobody's responsibility?

Exactly. We can all have opinions about the ethics of these types of pix, and perhaps our personal opinion of the ethical perspective will have an impact on our appreciation or otherwise of the art.

But it is art. Let's not be overly censurious about an artist expressing herself.

History can provide us with so many examples of art influencing social commentary. I believe that these types of images can actually prove to be more powerful than words. If these pix actually cause one person to change their thought patterns, then they have achieved a second objective, as well as the primary objective of artistic expression.

cricketfan
Very well put. And very true.

gstark wrote:

Collingwood wrote:I'm sorry Sheila, I know you like this pic but at the same time I'm giving you an honest opinion and bare in mind it is only one opinion.

We can all bare with you, but I will also bear that in mind.

Why do you think I hang out on picture forums and not word forums???

gstark wrote:

Collingwood wrote:The "ideal" photograph should not leave the viewer trying to guess a situation.

With all due respect, who makes the decision about what is an "ideal" photograph?

You may hold your belief about what you feel an ideal photograph might be, but please, permit the rest of us the respect to make that determination, with respect to our own views, ourselves.

I often find that seeing a photo that asks questions, but doesn't provide the answers, to be a very satisfying experience.

An "ideal" photograph is one which does not leave the viewer asking questions in regard to what they are viewing to a point where the photograph is not making sense to the viewer.
It is fair to generalize the statement I made because it would hold true to nearly every good photograph in this "documentary" type style as the image in this thread is.
The part I highlighted in your quote, you are correct but your comment refers to this situation:

"Now, don't confuse this with a photograph which makes a suggestion to the viewer and then lets them interpret the outcome."

After careful re-evaluation of the image again, I firmly stand by my critque.

Edit: I should also point out the way I critque people's work. My critque is based on the quality of the work and the ability of photographer as I believe them to be. This meaning, the better I consider the photographer, the better I expect the work to be and the harder I will be on my critique. This does not suggest I nit pick because I certainly don't and will state if I do.

Collingwood wrote:

gstark wrote:

Collingwood wrote:I'm sorry Sheila, I know you like this pic but at the same time I'm giving you an honest opinion and bare in mind it is only one opinion.

We can all bare with you, but I will also bear that in mind.

Why do you think I hang out on picture forums and not word forums???

Perhaps you need to acquaint yourself with the FAQ.

Right now it's offline due to a minor server glitch, but it should be back within an hour or two. As you are a new member here, I would strongly encourage you to read it. Please ensure that you do.

gstark wrote:

Collingwood wrote:The "ideal" photograph should not leave the viewer trying to guess a situation.

With all due respect, who makes the decision about what is an "ideal" photograph?

You may hold your belief about what you feel an ideal photograph might be, but please, permit the rest of us the respect to make that determination, with respect to our own views, ourselves.

I often find that seeing a photo that asks questions, but doesn't provide the answers, to be a very satisfying experience.

An "ideal" photograph is one which does not leave the viewer asking questions in regard to what they are viewing to a point where the photograph is not making sense to the viewer.

Bzzzt!

Wrong answer.

You may well have your opinion of what you consider to be an ideal picture. I accept and respect that.

But how in the world can you even begin to presume to decide, what, for me (or for any other person here, or anywhere else) represents an ideal picture? How presumptive of you!

Do you believe that you are all-knowing, and that I am incapable of deciding that for myself?

With all due respect, you are unlikely to be so, and I am quite capable of making my own decisions, including what I believe might consist of an ideal picture.

I really don't need you to make my decisions for me, and I'll thank you to show me the respect to permit me to make my decisions asd I have already been doing for most of my life.

I have no idea why you quoted what you did and then suggested I should read the FAQ???

You took my opinion in my first critique very literally and personally and I then tried to answer it with a simple explanation. I then received your second post. If you could show me a documentary photograph which does not contain the "ideal" as I have described it, I would make an apology for my apparent "arrogance."

But, as you give no such examples, post in a very aggressive manner, are the site admin and representative of this site in itself, I find your attitude rather poor. You clearly came into this thread playing favourites and letting "your opinion" stand in the way of any rational discussion.

Here is another:

An "ideal" photograph should contain correct exposure.
Now, don't get this confused with deliberate over/under exposure for effect.

Another statement I have made for others. Depending on how literal you want to take this, (NOTE: all my ideal's are with apostrophies!) or how much your own personality refuses to be told "anything!" the above is another statement which, well, it's kinda true!
There may be .00001% of the time when maybe it may not be true but like I said, it's about how literal you want to be!

Anyhow, topic closed on my part and I will cease bothering with giving my opinion on others work as I cannot so carefully word all my posts that I may not upset you again Mr. Admin.

If you are now going to tell me I'm banned, so be it.
If you wish to carry this further, by all means PM me.

Mark, Gary

The dilemma of the written word - so easy to misunderstand or misstate without all the non verbal stuff. I'm sure both of you probably have similar views when it comes to the way you approach your work. I know Gary enough to say that he is technically profficient and takes time when composing and processing his work and (excuse my assumption) I'd say the same largely applies to you too Mark.

I guess the real issue here probably comes down in many ways to the use of the phrase "ideal photograph". For me I don't believe there is such a thing and I guess that's what Gary was saying. Because it's such a subjective thing when we perceive an image and because we have our own personal psychic baggage and life experience to add to the mix we all have the potential to interpret an image differently.

I do believe there are certain things we can do as photographers though to MAXIMISE the impact of our photography for the majority of viewers and I'm guessing that's really what Mark says is the "ideal photograph".

There's no need for anyone to start flaming anyone else over this and certainly no reason as things stand for talk of banning. Just take a breath and stand back and enjoy what you can of Sheila's wonderful, but imperfect work.

Cheers

You're not goint to be banned for this.

Seeing as the admin vs. user issues here is like throwing a rock against another rock, I'll insert my mossy goo admin like quality to see if I can get the point Gstark was trying to push without any messy pebbly aftermath.

You've got this nice idea of saying "the ideal photograph is" such and such and such.

Perhaps you need to add the following words to your statement:
"in my opinion" or "in my mind"

That's probably the problem that Gstark is taking issue with here as it would automatically seem that a level of arrogance is needed to say that the "ideal" photograph MUST be something if you state that without stating that it is your opinion.

So, for you, the "ideal photograph" is something, but for other people, the "ideal photograph" is something else.

You might need to add those words to separate yourself from having a degree of egocentricity or a level of arrogance so that no misunderstandings are resulted in with this way of wording things.

Collingwood wrote:I'm giving you an honest opinion and bare in mind it is only one opinion.
I feel the shot is neither here nor there.
What exactly...

Thanks for both your replies and they are both well written and I can take them in the context in which they were meant to be taken.

I'll first clear the point Nnnnsic made. I did make clear reference to the thoughts being my opinion. In order to cover my critique and demonstrate "all" of my critique was "clearly" and solely "my" opinion, I would have needed to keep repeating this after each statement I made. Makes for boring reading! lol
Now, I am making an assumption that people here do not need to be told when someone posts over and over that the view is simply of the person who is making the post.
I agree with your point, I did try and cover this aspect but at times everyone surely must realise, no matter if the poster suggests or not, it is "only their opinion" and to take it for exactly what it is.
If I post a pic, someone comes out and completely bags it, thats perfectly fine! I'll read, review the comments, compare the suggestions to the pic I presented and then evaluate if I believe that person has made some credible comments or if I think they are way off the ball.
Each post here is only one persons opinion and surely besides reasons of needing to be polite, no one needs to be told this?

stubbsy, you said:

I do believe there are certain things we can do as photographers though to MAXIMISE the impact of our photography for the majority of viewers and I'm guessing that's really what Mark says is the "ideal photograph".

Yes, completely correct in what I was suggesting. Photographic rules can be broken, make no mistake but most times, the rules are rules because when used, they "normally" result in the best possible image or they wouldn't be rules in the first place. No suggestion regarding any photographic technique can ever be set in stone but some certainly are very valid ways to approach photography to become a better photographer and produce better images.
The point is, yes, I did generalise to a degree but surely people can work out for themselves if someone has generalized or not?

In the end, it's not about attacking viewpoints but making your own decisions on the viewpoint which was presented.
My viewpoint was of Sheila's image. She returned her view to my comments, agree to disagree and I believe my comments I made in this thread should have ended there. I no longer needed to make another post in this thread.

I do apologise for the big pow wow but sheesh, these are the problems you get on other forums which I was hoping could be avoided here.

Everything written in a post is "solely the opinion of the poster." It should be written under the forum heading prior to entry to the forum for anyone who is not clear on this.

I think I'm just having a bad day in err... "general!" lol

Mark

Thanks for responding. There's no need to worry. We really are generally nice people here, honest Sometimes, as I suggest above, it's so easy when writing things to misunderstand each other when there really is no need and then it's flaming emails at 50 paces which no one enjoys or needs.

Collingwood wrote:In order to cover my critique and demonstrate "all" of my critique was "clearly" and solely "my" opinion, I would have needed to keep repeating this after each statement I made. Makes for boring reading! lol

Don't you believe that the people reading your poosts can make that determination for themselves?

As Peter and Leigh have both pointed out, what constitutes an "ideal" photograph, is purely subjective, and is always going to be in the eye of the beholder. For you to state what an ideal photograph might be, without qualifying it as your opinion, seems to me to be the height of arrogance, and as such I take offence to such a statement.

And FWIW, it makes no difference that I'm the site admin or not. I have that attitude whenever anybody attempts to make decisions on my behalf, but without asking my permisssion to do so. And further FWIW, you need to learn a little about who I am and how I behave before you begin to presume that I might ban someone for disagreeing with me. I encourage vigorous discussion, but I insist that it not become personal.

That said, you do need to be explicit in how you make statements here: we take great pride in the fact that we can pursue active discussions without resorting to personal invective (such as happens on other sites), and you need to try to take care and ensure that your statements mean precisely what you intend them to mean.

If you want to say something that is your opinion, is really that difficult to preface it with something like "IMO"?

Now, I am making an assumption that people here do not need to be told when someone posts over and over that the view is simply of the person who is making the post.

And, with respect, that would not be the correct behaviour.

While I agree that it might seem to be logical at one level, please explain to me the difference between the following two statements ... I'll give you a clue to make it easy: one of these statements is my own opinion, the other is not ..

An ideal photograph should fill the frame with the subject.

An ideal photograph should fill the frame with the subject.

Now, can you tell me which of those statements is intended to represent my opinion?

I agree with your point, I did try and cover this aspect but at times everyone surely must realise, no matter if the poster suggests or not, it is "only their opinion" and to take it for exactly what it is.

Unless it is explicitly stated that x is y, why should somebody read something else into the statement? I choose my words very carefully, and I expect them to be read as I have written them. If I want to clarify something, as, for instance, my opinion, then I will say so. Otherwise, I run the risk of being misinterpreted, but I would, in that instance, accept full responsibility for being misinterpreted because what I said (or wrote) was unclear.

Is wrong to expect others to also be explicit in their communications?

Is it wrong for me to expect you to say what you mean, or would you prefer that I interpret everything that you say in any way that I choose?

And is it appropriate that one takes responsibility for the words that they write, as they are written?

If I post a pic, someone comes out and completely bags it, thats perfectly fine!

Actually, within the walls of this forum, that is not ok.

Not, at any rate, to simply bag the image.

It's certainly fine to offer constructive criticism, so, if you think something isn't good, then by all means, say so, but justify your statements wherever appropriate.

Each post here is only one persons opinion and surely besides reasons of needing to be polite, no one needs to be told this?

You would be surprised.

Everything written in a post is "solely the opinion of the poster."

Often, yes.

Everything? No.

Some things are immutable.

Facts.

1 + 1 = 2

That's not my opinion; it's an immutable fact of life.

Unless everything I say is a fact - whci can never be the case, then I feel it's often necessary to identify, where there's a risk of misinterpretation on the part of others, when what I'm stating isn't a fact. Again, all it requires is a simple "IMO" or something along those lines.

I've been doing this stuff for longer than the Internet has existed, and nobody has yet to observe that it's "boring". I'd respectfully suggest that you consider adopting something that helps you to clarify your intent.

It should be written under the forum heading prior to entry to the forum for anyone who is not clear on this.

And again I'd respectfully suggest that you have a good look at the FAQ. It contains lost of very useful bits of information, including something similar to what you're suggesting. Clearly, you've not yet taken the time to read it, and I would seriously commend it to you as essential reading.

I think I'm just having a bad day in err... "general!" lol

I'm certainly not qualified to comment on this.



Finally, please accept that if you're stating your opinion, the convention here is to make that point clear.

This part of the conversation is now way off topic, and no further correspondence will be entered into. Any further comments on this aspect will be summarily deleted.

Man, that was one long post but I did read it all!
Ok, I'm happy to call a truce (only on my behalf of course as I cannot speak for yourself) and should you "wish to agree," we can move on and shall try again.
It's much more stuffing around writing replies in this thread (man, look at all your quotes and I would have to reply to that with even more quotes than you made!) than moving on to "several" other threads and posting in each.

Cheers