Bargains section and equipment purchasing

[gstark]

Over the next few days (perhaps eating into early in the new year) we'll be implementing a few minor changes here and there.

As you appreciate, this is not a commercial board, and it maintains no commercial affiliations. With this in mind, I'm ever wary that we do not turn this into a trading post.

The special deals that Birddog is able to arrange for us are reserved for members only, and to maintain the high standards that you have already been keeping, we really want to keep these deals - and they are great deals - reserved for active members only.

What's an active member? Oversimplified, it might be defined as someone who participates here, and (again, oversimplifying this) participation really means posting messages.

That's not entirely satisfactory, as it doesn't really account for those of you who simply lurk, nor does it provide for those who might turn up at meets wthout saying too much on the forums.

The latter problem may be able to be addressed in a number of ways, and we're looking at ways we can implement something to address this issue.

The problem with lurkers is slightly more insidious: by lurking, you're not actually contributing, are you? Having said that, you're welcome to lurk. I'd appreciate your help and suggestions though for ways to acknowledge that lurkers are an important part of the community.

For now though, the specials/bargains that are negotiated for members are going to be restricted to members with more than 30 postings to their credit. If you don't have 30 posts, then you are not eligble to purchase cameras, lenses, etc through our resources. You will still be able to buy forum merchandise though - that's stuff like the neckstraps, t-shirts, and so on.

As I said, this isn't 100% satisfactory. Probably not even 60%, and we'll be looking to refine it as we upgrade the software components to make it a little less cumbersome to manage.

But I reiterate that I'm seeking your thoughts and feedback on this. The goal is to keep this board friendly and happy, but not to turn it into an open market. Your suggestions are important, so please let me know what you think.

[sirhc55]

Well stated Gary. My belief is that you can only access the bargain section with a code as we have for the competition through MHDs site. This would limit access to members only and the 30 posts restriction could still be in place.

That’s of course if it can be done.

Chris

[bago100]

Hi Gary and others

You are right. The success or otherwise of any club depends on the input and contribution of its members.
Unfortunately, as in any walk of life, these always will be those who join a club and take all of the benefits on offer and make little or no contribution.

Your suggestion about making 30 posts is a sensible one. I think one needs to be mindful that the posts that one makes to reach the 30 should reflect a genuine desire to join us and to participate in discussions and events when we can.

As for lurking - I must admit to being a lurker occasionally while at work especially during lunchtime when the time is my own to use as I please. During this time, I would prefer not to be signed in due to my employers policy of tracking staff web use.

Your suggestion about a minimum number of posts is a good one. However if it is adopted, it will have to be enforced to have any meaning.

Also, I would not object to payment of some kind of membership fee either because I know you and Birdy and others from time to time incur expenses to keep this unique group afloat. I realise this suggestion opens a whole new can or worms though, and you may not want to go there.

Happy Christmas

Graham

[mudder]

G'day,
Yep, fair enough too... Hmm dunno if I can offer any good suggestions though... Hmmm password is good, reaching some form of milestone or some form of method of recognising forum activity is good...

I agree in that we need to keep tabs on it otherwise it'll take advantage of individuals and get away from you...

Can't think of any good suggestion at the moment tho... I think brains are mush, but you have a good point...

Cheers,
Mudder

[skippy]

Potentially a thorny one. Not sure if I've earned the right to stick my oar in, but here goes anyway.

Possibilities:
30 posts min -> leaves you open to people joining, then flooding to get the number.
Veto power by a select group -> potentially too nasty.
Members with above say 100 or 200 posts automatically, others by (anonymous?) nomination/seconding from those members? Would this work?

[Onyx]

This was gunna be a can of worms from the start.

I believe it has been suggested before during one or more of our Sydney meets - to implement membership fees, and maybe restrict deals to those members only. However, I believe Gary does not have the desire for this site to operate like that... <cough> Nikonians </cough>

It should be pointed out too - there is absolutely no obligation for anymore to purchase from Birddog. However, whilst respecting everyone's freedom to shop elsewhere, because he is kindly offering at wholesale cost, with zero profit, photographic supplies to members of this community, it makes little financial sense to shop elsewhere.

Anyway, semi-seriously, may I suggest as part of that 30 post, one of which should be with an image attached for showing off or for constructive criticism. This site caters predominantely to our photography hobby, as much as it does a lens & accessories collecting hobby.

[Geoff]

Hi Gary and Crew,
I think that the idea of a min 30 post is also a good one, and the suggestion of a password type access to the bargain areas is also good. I am also very keen to pay a membership fee to help in the maintenance in the forum, as I value what is said in here and the true down to earth feel of the forum. I can't speak for everyone else but I don't think you'd get much objection to this by the people that actively contribute and post lots to help each other out, although I could be wrong? Without sounding stingy I too don't believe it's fair for people (lurkers) who just arrive to the forum to be gaining instant and awesome beenfits that those who are active and contribute so much - it's a little lop sided. Maybe a poll to put up 'would you be prepared to pay a small contribution/membership for the forum' ? Cheers,

Geoff.

[BBJ]

Hi Gary and all, well i think most of it has been said i think the 30 post might be ok as well. I see we have 261 registered user's and well we dont have that many active user's so and well i doubt if a lot of them haven't even posted anything.
Anyhow i just go with the flow.
John
BBJ

[johndec]

Despite the risk that I may be accused of making this post to boost my numbers.... I think that setting a numerical minimum is a flawed method. After all I can get my post count up to 100 within an hour by going to every topic and posting "Couldn't agree more" or "LOL".

By the time I'd made 5 posts here, I'd already been to Birddogs and got a bag, 2xCPL's, a 1gig Astone, a strap and a shirt. Tomorrow I'm dropping by to get a rubber eyecap (prearranged and approved by Birddog).

Nine times out of ten, I'll read a post and think of a reply, only to notice that someone else has already posted a reply similar to the one I was framing, so I'll just let it go rather than waste everyone elses time with a "what he said" one line post.

Having said that, I'm going to contradict myself and go along with "what he said" I agree that a small subscription would soon sort the sheep from the goats..... I have 2 ideas to acheive this:

1. Most of us have used ebay and probably have paypal accounts. This could be used to gather subscriptions to help support this forum.

OR, if you don't want or need financial support...

2. Nominate a charity that we could donate a specified amount to and we could send a scanned copy of the receipt to qualify for membership.

The beauty of either method that was if the bargains section was password protected, the "goats would have to become sheep" before they could see what they were missing.

Just my $1.10 (incl GST) worth

[gstark]

All,

Some great feedback coming through. Thanx, but don't stop.

I particularly like Onyx's suggestion that one of the thirty posts must be of an image. I have no idea (as yet) of how we can implement that, but in principal, the concept of ..

1: Minimum of 30 posts
2: Minimum of 1 image posting

sounds quite attractive.

Regarding the payment of some sort of membership fee: not at this time.

Despite the risk that I may be accused of making this post to boost my numbers.... I think that setting a numerical minimum is a flawed method. After all I can get my post count up to 100 within an hour by going to every topic and posting "Couldn't agree more" or "LOL".

Actually, no, you couldn't.

Earlier this evening I changed the flood posting timeout from 15 to 60 seconds. Having said that, I'll offer some points of observation: that means that you could (in theory) reach the minimum requirement in about a half hour, but in reality, we wouldn't be prepared to let that happen.

Leigh or I would simply delete the posts we considered to be against the principles of this forum, and pm the perpetrator wth a polite warning. Were the perpetrator to persist, we would simply ban them and be done with it.

As I said in my thread starter, active participation is the goal, that requires a bit more effort than simple nodding in agreement.

But yes, I'll gladly accept that it's a flawed method, but while I'm certainly open to other suggestions, something along the lines of number of posts iseems like a good starting point.

And of course, those of you who know me know that I don't mind cans of worms: active but friendly debate is what it's all about, and the running of this forum is not exempt from scrutiny.

Well, not too exempt.

[MCWB]

I was chatting about this very issue with Birddog and Onyx at the last meet. I think 30 posts is more than reasonable, the only problem with this is that it opens up the potential issue of people spamming just to get to 30 posts. I don't think this will be much of an issue in the short term, but as the site grows I suspect it may well become a problem (I've seen it before and it aint pretty ). Edit: just saw your post Gary. Whilst deleting spammy posts is great, I suspect that when this community grows larger, it may become a full-time job, and no-one wants that.

Another idea that could be implemented is a time restriction, i.e. you must have been a member here for 90 days for example. If used in conjunction with the 30 post limit, this means you only need to make one post every ~3 days, so it lessens the urge to spam your way to 30 posts. It also means that (down the track) we'll get less people joining just to get a good deal, and not for the community itself (as they'd have to wait for 90 days).

In terms of password protection, couldn't you just create a different user group for those with >30 posts (and maybe > 90 days), and only have the bargains section accessible to users in that group? They could be called "members" and "new members". Not sure if you can automate this in PHPBB though.

Anyway, just some remblings based on my experiences.

[ajax]

Gary,

That's a good idea. It will at least keep (lazy) people like me motivated

cheers,
ajax

[johndec]

Gary,

I have no probs with your proposals as I'm close to 30 posts anyway. I'd be happy to post some images and on the advice of Onyx I contacted Kristine at pixspot back on 8/12/04 but she never replied and I haven't got around to organising an alternate place for my images. Got any suggestions?

[Manta]

From a newbie's perspective....

My main concern isn't with the 30 posts, the image submission, the potential membership fee/donation or the 90 day embargo. I see each of these as a ridiculously small price to pay for the veritable wealth of information and actual financial savings of which forum participants can avail themselves within these threads.

I intend being an active member and envisage posting often on the many subjects herein but, as nothing more than an enthusiastic amatuer dabbler in the photographic arts, I don't feel I'm ever going to have anything really useful to 'bring to the table' so that others benefit from MY membership as much as I benefit from THEIRS. For me, the forum is, at this stage, a one-way street offering advice, support and bargains while costing me, basically, squat.

This apparent imbalance may not concern others and I know there's precious little that can be done to address the 'imbalance' but at least this is one member who doesn't take the forum for granted and is not just here to take advantage of Birddog's and others' generosity and be done with it.

I may not submit gems but I'll keep submitting regardless.

[skippy]

Agree with the requirement to post an image. Makes you put in at least a token effort, which would hopefully kickstart participation anyway. The group membership restriction on the Bargains section also sounds good if it would work - save having to remember two passwords, and hopefully it could be scripted as say an overnight job to count posts and look for img tags. Anything that reduces the load on the moderators is a good thing. The rate this forum's growing a manual process won't be practical.

If it's an automated process the way it determines whether an image has been posted would have to be published, or it could become confusing. Some images are inline, while my Bigma samples for example were on a different site and posted as links. The process would have to be able to pick up both ways, or the way to post images would need to go in the Info section.

Not that all this worries me too much yet - the budget's going to take a while to recover from the most recent bashing!

[PlatinumWeaver]

You can give access to forums by being a member of a certain group. The only I don't know if if you can make the board automatically add someone to that group at a certain point or if it's a manual process

[PlatinumWeaver]

Just to highlight the lurker situation... There are 251 registered users and about 80 users that have made 0 posts.

Not that I'm against lurkers..

[dooda]

i think that the goal is going to be a long term fix instead of a short term one. The many here who lurk already know about everything the there is to offer here. If you had the bargains section issued by password as soon as they reach the requirments, in the future someone who lurks on here won't necessarily know about the potential benefits, and hence won't spam their way to a password etc. It would then be important to make sure that discussion about Birdie's merchandise stay behind that particular closed door, so that no one comes in here and runs into a discussion about super ultra cheap stuff just by becoming a lurking member. It won't have an effect on the current lurkers, but it would on any future ones.

Bytheway, I never posted an image for critique, or critiqued an image before encountering this site. It forced me to go an extra step and has enhanced my photo experience. It should do the same for anyone else who hasn't yet done posted pictures and critiqued someone else's photos.

The trick is, there is no possible method of guessing the motive for someone's posts. And automated is probably too weak. Hopefully, at thirty posts and a pic, someone can judge whether or not they have participated in the thirty posts, and he get a password that way. Of course this is work for the moderator, how much work I have no idea, though I'm sure members here are willing to help.

[ajo43]

Here is an idea:

30 posts
1 image
starting at least 5 threads

My main fear in all this is that we are going to increase Gary and his son's workload. In the end what we are doing is not trying to stop people buying from Birdy, just encourage people to post and to post constructively.

[Glen]

Gary, a good idea, like the 30 posts + image as an idea, mainly as a tool to get people to understand the flavour of the board, the spirit of cooperation and the respect most of us have for Birddog's time as this is voluntary what he does for us.

One of my pet dislikes is the people who post " Birdy, can post a price for me on a black D70, a red one , a blue one, and of course the each of the above with either a 512 k card, then each with a 1gb card and finally each of the above with a 2gb card". He does this voluntarily (for no profit or pay) for us, so lets see how we can make it easier for him. We are getting a great price, we should all ask the question "How can I make this easier for Birddog?".

Do your research online but use the full resources of the 250 strong community, don't leave it to one knowledgable member. Note many threads at the moment, which tripod? monopod? lens? etc, which is a perfect way to get a range of opinions.

[pl55]

Here's my suggestion,

to get an auto password:

at least 30 posts
> 60 days
at least 1 login every 3 days BTW, I tend to login in this forum 3-4 times per day to catch up on the news, etc. Similarly to DPreview. Howvever, in the DPreview D70- I find it frustating to find a lot of duplicate posts, silly posts, trolls, etc. lately which can be very annoying. I must admit I tend to lurks alot , because I want to see what info out there can help me in my D70.....


My pet hates in the forum: SPAM , TROLLS and SILLY POSTS....

[gstark]

Good morning all.

Here is an idea:

30 posts
1 image
starting at least 5 threads

My main fear in all this is that we are going to increase Gary and his son's workload. In the end what we are doing is not trying to stop people buying from Birdy, just encourage people to post and to post constructively.

Who still has Christmas shopping to be done?

Jonesy - excllent post, and absolutely spot on with respect to the goal.

Starting 5 threads .... I'm wondering if 5 threads started, within a short (30 message posts) span might be tough for some to achieve? Certainly an interesting point for consideration.

Dooda, yes, this is not inteded to be a short term fix. I don't consider that we really have an issue at them moment, but I do want to ensure that it stays that way, and that we do not ever get this as an issue.

I'm not considering a separate password - just group membership. That's one way that this can be enabled within phpbb, but again, that's a manual task. Perhaps it won't be a major manual task; I really don't know.

And I'm not intending to restrict view access to the bargains section. Let them see what's available, but not let them post, is what I have in mind. And of course they won't be able to purchase: they'll need to advise their username when wanting to purchase, and the lookup and validation on that is fairly easy. Perhaps a part of the purchase process might be that it must be transacted using the registered (here) email address.

While I certainly share your stated concerns about spamming here, I do believe that we can control that manually. With the upgrade to phpbb earlier this week, there is now a visual confirmation step as a part of the registration process. That, plus the fact that you must have a valid working email address prior to making any posting precludes bots etc from joining. It's certainly something that we'll continue to watch.

I'm not entirely convinced that a time based restriction will work: someone can just join and do nothing for x days .... but still, that does address the lurker situation, and at the same time, if we enforce a time based period for everyone, then spamming will serve no useful purpose if they've still got to wait x days before they can make a purchase.

One thing that I've not yet mentioned is that I'm also thinking in terms of a user credits type of scenario. There are a couple of solutions for phpbb that provide this facility. Consider that you gain units of credit for x days' membership, units of credit for a post made, units of credit for posting an image, units of credit for attendance at a meet (interstate meets, when they happen, will count too), and so on. x credits means you can buy at our special prices.

Keep the discussion flying folks. The more input we get, the better the solution that we will have.

[gstark]

Glen,

One of my pet dislikes is the people who post " Birdy, can post a price for me on a black D70, a red one , a blue one, and of course the each of the above with either a 512 k card, then each with a 1gb card and finally each of the above with a 2gb card". He does this voluntarily (for no profit or pay) for us, so lets see how we can make it easier for him. We are getting a great price, we should all ask the question "How can I make this easier for Birddog?".

Spot on.

As we both know, Birddog loves helping this community, but his family needs him too.

So too does his business, and your observation here is totally in line with our motivations in making it just that tiny bit harder to qualify for the great prices that he can provide.

Respect for his resources is just a bit of what this is about.

[Photodude]

seems a little harsh to have offer some people bargains whilst others are excluded???????????????????

Ive been a member for a few months now and log in everyday and enjoy reading the various posts and am starting to get a feel for the various personalities etc.

Have made a few posts - but in general tend to remain fairly quite at the risk of asking stupid questions or boring someone

Would not find it very encouraging to be exluded for this

Just my opinion


John

[W00DY]

Gary,

I'm glad you have started this thread...

As you know I have brought this issue up with you before in the interest of the board / community / members.

As you have pointed out to me earlier a membership type situation is out of the qustion (which I can appreciate) so I think the next best thing is level of participation.

As everyone has said this does open up to SPAM but you have countered that by saying you can handle it manually. I am sure you and Leigh can handle this and I am also sure that may members (myself included) woudl happily put their hand up to help moderate the forums (2 members per section etc...) if it ended up getting to much for you.

I do like te idea of people having to post images in the Critique section, I know I learn just as much from other peoples images as I do getting my own critiqued.

I'd appreciate your help and suggestions though for ways to acknowledge that lurkers are an important part of the community.

Hopefully this won't sound to harsh but Lurkers aren't really an important part of the community until they become an active member (which then means their not a lurker). Lurkers are more than welcome to well, lurk... But I don't think they are really important to the community.

I think we all agree (as it has been said before) that this is quite possibly the friendliest forum on the net, big call.... but possibly true

I for one really look forward to seeing where this board takes us all and am excited to be part of it.

Cheers,

W00DY

[bago100]

Just bumping this topic back on top

Important topic, it is!

Happy Christmas to everyone also

Graham

[gstark]

John,

seems a little harsh to have offer some people bargains whilst others are excluded???????????????????

Ive been a member for a few months now and log in everyday and enjoy reading the various posts and am starting to get a feel for the various personalities etc.

Have made a few posts - but in general tend to remain fairly quite at the risk of asking stupid questions or boring someone

Would not find it very encouraging to be exluded for this

Just my opinion

And I thank you for it; it's most valuable input.

But may I turn it around on you for a moment? Please don't consider this as an attack in any way, but simply a Devil's Advocate approach.

You've used the word "exclude" twice in your post. I might consider that to be a negative response from you.

I'd like to suggest a different POV if I may: rather than exclude - that's certainly not the intent - the purpose here is to encourage everyone - that includes you - to become more active.

It's not that you are excluded from anything, but more that, by being more active in your participation, you will firstly gain benefits by (hopefully) a direct improvement in your photographic skills (I'm sure there's more than a few who will ascribe to this viewpoint) and that you would secondly gain privileges here, such as the ability to participate in things like the special deals.

Does that make sense to you? I'm truly interested in your feedback on this.

Also review Woody's point about lurkers being exactly that. They lurk, and by definition, they're not being active.

It's not the intent to exclude them from anything; what I would much rather do is see them become more active. How can we incite the lurker to post? Providing access to our special deals seems to be one of probably many such ways. The key is finding those incentives and implementing them in a way that's not ging to piss too many people off.

That said, there are people who will always be lurkers. You can lead a horse to drink, but you can't make him water.

[Geoff]

Have made a few posts - but in general tend to remain fairly quite at the risk of asking stupid questions or boring someone


John

Photodude,
You must try to overcome your worry about asking a 'stupid' question..I teach things to colleagues in my profession every day, and the first thing I say to them is that 'no question is a stupid question'. ....if you don't ask, you won't know...and I think it's safe to say that the community of the forum, no one would hassle you for asking a question...we all learn from others questions..There..my two cents worth

Geoff.

[Greg B]

Gary,

I have no probs with your proposals as I'm close to 30 posts anyway. I'd be happy to post some images and on the advice of Onyx I contacted Kristine at pixspot back on 8/12/04 but she never replied and I haven't got around to organising an alternate place for my images. Got any suggestions?

John

Kristine has been in Sydney with limited computer access for the past few weeks (according to a post I saw). The pixspot site is excellent, and I believe there will be some integration with d70users shortly to make it even easier to use. Not sure when she will be back on deck, maybe try again after xmas

cheers

[Glen]

Photodude,

you have some good points and I would have to say this is one of the most inclusive boards on the net. I also don't think anyone should be penalised for being quiet, shy or feeling that don't have sufficient photographic knowledge to contribute.

The flip side is most people don't realise what the true cost of the benefit we are getting here is. I spent some time with Birddy and spoke to him a lot in the week before the Christmas Party. I know that he spent at least 3 full days working on D70 users business. The reality is that even if we were a non profit organisation we would have to pay for that time, not to mention what Gary & Leigh have recently done after the attack. While I believe a light poster is as valid a member as the next person, what could be perceived as a misuse of the generosity of the members is when an individual finds us by a Google search, comes in and haggles the bargains for ever, comparing the offers to Harvey Normans offer which include a dishwasher, purchase, then leave never to be seen again. That person is not a true member and has used some of our limited resources. What do you think?

[joet]

This is a topic that has been exercising my thoughts for some time now. Birddog is an exceptional individual and we should all be sensitive to the demands made on his time and therefore his business and family.

I understand that he does it because his generous nature means that he enjoys helping others, but we must find a way to keep the demands limited to a reasonable level, i.e. this means posts like "how much for this and that ??" really aren't helping the cause.

As to levels of posting, membership fees, image for critique etc., I make the following points:

30 plus seems an entirely reasonable requirement to me.

Fees, whilst difficult to enforce/accept/even justify may well have to be the way of the future - as the Forum grows, it seems unfair that it should continue to rely on the good graces of Gary, Leigh and the number of other voluntary contributions that are being made.

At least one image will need some encouragement for the less confident contributors but is well worth pursuing.

Finally, the so-called "lurkers" to some extent can be next period's active members when the urge photographic/lens lust/or otherwise overcomes their tendency to stay in the background'

My, have I got carried away

But it's a very important issue that will shape the future nature of this Forum - the best group I've discovered

Merry Christmas to all and a positive and productive New Year

Joe

[Greg B]

I think the 30 post requirement is a bit too light.

I suggest that only those members with 850 posts or more should be allowed access to the lens lust and other gears satisfaction process.

[W00DY]

But it's a very important issue that will shape the future nature of this Forum - the best group I've discovered

Joe

Exactly.

Being an early member (#34), This is what is most important to me. I have meet some great people from this forum and truely enjoy logging on everyday to catch up.

I already find it very hard to keep up with the forum as it grows even bigger.

That is why i TRY and get to as many meet's as possible (Ok only been to 2 but I am trying) as I see the meets as the best way to learn.

W00DY

[wile_E]

Hi guys,

I seem to be nodding my head in agreement with most people's point of view.

Gary, one point I'd like to raise though. Allowing everyone to view, yet limited members to order equipment may raise some anti-social behaviour from people inorder to "qualify". This may raise some concerns with you - especially if qualification is an automated process. My potential solution is to (unfortunately) make this process a manual one (ie if a member would like to order something, the onus would be on THEM to prove they have met the minimum qualifications of 30 posts, 1 pic etc etc). Hopefully that will save you/forum moderators/Birddog some work.

Just a thought...

ps: Merry Christmas all!! Hope Santa visits you with pressies designed to cure any 'lusts' you may have [/quote]

[Photodude]

Gary etc

I didnt use the word exclude in a negative context - it seems the only adjective available to me

I understand that you and certain others have obviously put in a mountain of work behind the scenes

I recently bought a camera bag from Birddog and yes I can see that he makes a HUGE effort to make people happy

I understand that we would all like to see forum member's actively participate - after all what good is a forum if no one contributes? - just not sure that having certain exclusions is the best way to do it

But then after reading's Glen's post about people just using the forum to haggle for good deals ........I can see both sides of the argument

So my soultion is - anyone with more than 22 posts can access the bargains section! LOL

Merry Christmas to all

John

[stubbsy]

I'm a newbie with a low number of posts and I lurk a lot looking for information. I think that puts me in an interesting position to comment compared to those well over the 30 posts mark

I've already taken advantage of the bargains (I bought 2 filters the first week I joined).

Now that I've framed this I'd have to say the 30 + an image idea is a great one and I endorse it strongly. One difficulty I have as a newbie is a reluctance to contribute for fear of appearing I lack knowledge (you guys are gods when I look up at you from the foot of the mountain).

Using access to bargains as a subtle carrot to encourage me to participate in what I'd have to say is one of the most inclusive groups I've been involved with is a superb idea. Everyone benefits.

Newbies are eased into the community and discover they too have something to contribute. "Old hands" get the pleasure of helping and the refreshing perspective that can only come from someone new to the hobby and we all get the benefits of group purchasing.

To have to wait to access bargains seems a small price to pay given the tremendous value I've seen in this forum in the short time I've had access.

Just my 2 cents!

Oh - almost forgot

I think the 30 post requirement is a bit too light.

I suggest that only those members with 850 posts or more should be allowed access to the lens lust and other gears satisfaction process

Greg B - I hope you're displaying your sense of humour (I notice you're just over that number of posts). If not and you're serious I'd have to say that's a pretty high figure.

Cheers

Stubbsy

[sirhc55]

Stubbsy - very succinct and mature reply and that’s coming from an old f@rt.

I saying that, and although I have been around photography for over 40 years, I for one learn more each day whether it be from a so called newbie or those who, like me have been around for ever.

The one thing to remember is that photography is foremost a visual record of what we perceive and enjoy.

Chris

[gstark]

Photodude, Stubbsy,

Two quite different points of view from two members who would be directly affected by these changes. I'm enjoying the fact that you're both open to this discussion in the forthright way that you're joining in.

Both of you are providing me with input that I consider to be most valuable, and it's only through your contributions that I believe that we can continue to improve this facility.

John, I didn't want to suggest that your point of view was negative, but more to highlight that it may be open to be interpreted that way. Again, don't view the unavailabilty of some parts as being an exclusion, but more of a privilege that one needs to earn.

Would passing a driver's license test be a reasonable analogy? We do not have a right to drive; it's a privilege that we earn by passing a driving test. In a similar way, you don't have a right to enjoy the privilege of getting the bargains simply by joining these forums; it's a privilege that you need to earn through your active participation here.

Does that make any sense at all?

Stubbsy, yes, Greg was displaying his sense of humour. We'll hit him later.

[Manta]

This dynamic little thread is certainly drawing out some opinion.

If I can throw something else into the mix.

Some of you may be aware of the game of Geocaching which involves the use of a GPS receiver to locate items strategically placed by other members. There are currently about 6000 geocaches around the world in more than 200 countries. The game is administered through what began as a simple website (http://www.geocaching.com) and now has tens of thousands of members. Membership is free. The sheer weight of numbers and the workload involved in maintaining the site gave rise to the idea of a Premium Membership which, for a small annual fee (currently around US$30 per year), gives the user extra features within their membership (such as being able to download cache descriptions directly to a PDA rather than having to print off hard copies from their PC, etc.

What this fairly long-winded response is getting to is that perhaps a Premium Membership situation could be instigated here, such that those that wish to take advantage of the bargain sections of our forum could become PMs and would be contributing to the growing costs in time and money that our founding members incur through providing this service.

No idea of the practicalities of such a scheme; I was just thinking out loud.
I'm certainly happy to contribute in any way that other members deem appropriate.
(Apologies if this mirrors ideas already put forward - I've been trying to keep up with everything but four hours sleep after a night shift is not helping .
Simon.

[PlatinumWeaver]

If I don't make much sense then please forgive me, I didn't sleep much last night... Damn 'World of Warcraft'..

How about this, on top of any other measure that is taken..

Someone ( i'm happy to do it ) spends 30 minutes or so each day collating Birddog's posts into one continually updated sticky.. not his regular posts, just those that mention prices.. most people are looking at similar stuff, so this can be an initial port of call when looking for prices.. everyone wants the 70-200 VR IF ED 2.8 so instead of getting multiple queries at the same time, people can gently encouraged to have a look and what the price was last time someone asked..

This section is available to people who've met whatever requirement is chosen by the powers that be.. -or- for those who are still too scared to ask stupid questions ( check my sig, i'm over the scared part ) and donate $X to Yperson or Zcharity

I know that on OCAU there's a 90 day waiting period before anyone can sell or buy anything from their trading forums, more so people don't get ripped off rather than to make less work for people, but it obviously works there without too much backlash. Imagine if you had to wait 90 days after joining here before indulging in a little retail lens lust reduction?


As I said.. I might not be making any sense.. but here's 2c more of my opinion

[Vicareyus]

Good discussion re this matter. I agree with the need to convert lurkers to active members to continue to grow the community. I also agree that Gary and Birddog selflessly give because they genuinely see the value of this forum as a community...and the development of "social capital" that results. I think there is a need to introduce measures to encourage active participation - the gains from the development of financial capital (ie getting good deals) are really once again gains for the social capital side of this forum (ie the building of an interesting, vibrant community with diverse membership).

I see setting rules for access to good financial deals as a valid and reasonable method for achieving active participation.

Hmm...agree with a minimum post requirement and with posting a picture for critique requirement.

Am uncertain about a frequency of posting requirement (ie at least one post every 3 days was suggested). I'm afraid that my work and domestic committments get in the way for weeks sometimes..its not that I'm no longer interested, just that I dont have the time to sit down and give some considered input into the forum.

I am one that is in favour of some sort of membership fee mainly because I would like to contribute to Gary and Birddogs overheads a bit. But I recognise that this would then add to the workload even more by introducing accounting and management issues.

One new thought is that perhaps the forum could establish a picture baord as a commercial venture to members (not compulsory). I'd be happy to change from smug-mug (that I pay for) to a d70users site and pay for it if I knew it subsidised the forum.

Vic

[jdear]

great idea gstark,

i love the idea of rewarding those who actively discuss and get involved with this forum, after all the great many threads and discussions that go on, why wouldnt you??

Maybe you should consider raising the benchmark of 30 when we have more members and in like a fewe months time, that way, people are not just posting to 30 and then sitting there. (sorry if someone suggested this, i didnt read through the entire post)

I promise not to lurk myself, ive found it pretty amazing ive posted whatever number i have still without owning a d70... yes im working very hard on that, and look forward to inputing more into this excellent community.

What this fairly long-winded response is getting to is that perhaps a Premium Membership situation could be instigated here, such that those that wish to take advantage of the bargain sections of our forum could become PMs and would be contributing to the growing costs in time and money that our founding members incur through providing this service.

great idea, id be happy to contribute something... could use the collective monies at the end of the year to attend a workshop or something and bless gstark and birddog for their awesome efforts.

To all a very happy christmas and NY!

JD

[phillipb]

I'm curious about something.
I can easily see for myself the number of people in this forum that contribute compared to the total number of members, but what I would really like to see is the number of people who have purchased something through Birddog and the number of posts next to their name, to see if there is an increasing trend towards joining for the sake of bargains and nothing else.
Birddog probably spends more time in this forum than anybody else (moderators excluded) he is probably in a better position then most to know if this trend is actually happening. I know it is not in his nature, but maybe he should quote prices according to how he feels about the particular member... No that will never happen! Maybe then there should be a surcharge wich will decrease in proportion to the number of posts.
I'm sure someone could come up with a formula.

[Kristine]

Hi everyone!

johndec - please check your PM's

vic - there is no need to renew your smug smug account when the time comes - you can get no cost image hosting at pixspot

I have a lot of plans for pixspot in the new year, including the gallery integration with the forum. I will be able to finalise this on my return to Sydney next weekend.

I think that all of the suggestions put forward in this thread are great and it shows members commitment and loyalty to the forum. I will admit to not logging in each time I visit the forum; this depends on where I am at the time.

I agree that forum members should have to contribute to the forum in some form (including posts, pics, membership fees or some other form) before being able to qualify for the exceptional prices that Birddog offers us all. I would not like to see Birddogs generosity taken advantage of by any member (especially non-active members). I know that most of us appreciate Birddogs generosity greatly and would never take advantage of this. I don't think that it is fair for a member who joins and then makes a few posts, purchases what they want and then proceed to be a non-active member.

In regards to the newer members who are concerned about posting "stupid" questions, I am sure if you have read through older threads on the forum, you will see that no question has ever been marked as "stupid". Members are here to assist each other, and as many other members have already stated, the only dumb question, is the question not asked...

Cheers
Kristine

Have a happy and safe holiday season

[the foto fanatic]

Hmmm, a conundrum!

Let me say up front that I understand the reason this thread was commenced, and I agree with the overall sentiments. I have wondered, at times, at the trust extended to forum members, often sight unseen, on the basis of a few posts. Birddog and Poon are more trusting than any retailer would be. Gear worth hundreds, if not thousands, is being sent half-way round the world without funds being transferred in many cases.

I was a lurker for a long time. Member number 39, total posts about 45 (mostly in the last 2 months). Yet I have just bought Nikon glass which would have cost $5000 retail at a very handy discount to that price. Why was I a lurker? I think I can only answer that by saying that I think the forum has only just now reached a critical mass, and prior to that, it was a little light on for the interaction I was looking for. (Not a criticism of the forum BTW – more a reflection on myself! )

Do I have an answer? Not really, but I can't say that I am in favour of a minimum number of posts before being able to buy from D70gear.com. I would certainly understand if that were the final outcome of this discussion, but don’t know whether, in the end, it would prove anything. I do like the idea of including a requirement for at least one image.

I'm wondering about having some sort of loose State-based network where people can meet and become known. You have that already in Sydney, and I believe that we are getting close in Brisbane. I suppose that would provide a framework of knowledge about members, reducing the risk to Poon and Birddog. Maybe members wanting to buy large ticket items have to be prepared to provide some identification or other info to Birddog, or maybe a certain percentage (or even ALL) of the price needs to be paid before the item is shipped. I think the member should wear his/her share of the risk, rather than Birddog wearing the total risk for all purchasers.

Sorry for rambling. Hope I haven’t muddied the waters.

[Glen]

Great and reasoned debate here! Great thoughts put forward by all.

First of all, incidental to this thread, we have learnt that people are concerned to post basic questions. Lets start a section called "absolute beginner questions" or similar. Nothing will be too basic in that section. Old hands can look at it if they wish to be helpful and ignore if they are looking at something else. What do people think?

Other ideas mention above which I believe have some merit. Staged discounts. My wife actually suggested this to me about 3 weeks ago (when she worked out what I was spending ). She suggested a small surcharge, such as $20 for up to 30 posts, $10 for 30 - 500, free over 500 (note I am over 500 ) or similar which rewards participation. Obviously this would only apply to purchases say over $300. I saved near to $1,000 on one lens, would I mind donating $20 to the forum, I don't think so.

Membership, as mentioned above, voluntary is an option. Gary has done his best to be as inclusive as possible for everyones benefit. I share and admire his vision. At a auto site I am a member of, they have voluntary memebership. All are welcome, but members are denoted by that next to their name. This may have some benefits, as it allows someone who is new to the forum with limited knowledge, to show they are interested up front. I am talking a modest amount, like $20 which is not much in relation to a $2,000 camera. It is nothing compared to the friendship, camaraderie, advice and bargains I have had since being a member here. I have definitely got back what I put in and then some. Again, I see this being totally voluntary as some members are students, running tight financially, etc and the last thing we want is someone excluded for financial reasons

These ideas could be combined with a members and non members price as obviously some one is not tight for money if they are satisfying a lens lust, so could afford membership.

Please feel free to debate or pull apart any of the above ideas

[Onyx]

Instead of a 'premier membership' fee type thing, how bout a flat rate donation of say $1 per $100 for purchases thru Birddog. Compulsary tip if you will. Birdy and Gary could then split it to help with hosting costs of this forum, and to reimburse for time and effort expended administering to orders, etc.

[Greg B]

Firstly, yes my previous post (re - 850 posts before as purchase) was frivolous.

Secondly, this has been an excellent discussion, and many relevant issues have been raised.

I think that, perhaps, a premium membership, with an annual fee of, say, $25, could be mandatory for those wishing to make purchases (plus a minimum posting requirement)

I know that Birdy has refused to accept any extra in the past, and I think the same with Gary, however the funds raised could be used
- to offset forum running costs, or
- to finance prizes, or
- we are all pretty well off if we can afford this hobby, in varying degrees perhaps, but compared to many around the world, we are doing OK. Maybe we could sponsor a child, or for example, buy an SB800 for that guy who was doing the photographs in Burma or Thailand, or something similar. It would give this excellent forum yet another level of excellence.

[Matt. K]

Gary
Although I have not yet read all the posts to this thread, the one that really struck me as being a good idea is to have all of Birddogs transactions hidden from members until they had reached a certain number of posts and timeframe. By not being aware of the financial benefits only genuine D70 users would persist and contribute. After they had reached their posting and time milestone they would then be pleasantly suprised to see those extra benefits that the forum and Birddog provide. In effect this would be creating a 2 tiered membership but it certainly would maintain the quality of the forum.

Heaven forbid if the forum degenerated to the level that DPreview now seems to be sinking to.

[christiand]

Hi everyone,

I agree with the majority of what has been said in this thread.
The intentions are good and I support ideas such as fulfilling certain membership criteria and or membership fee.

Have a merry Christmas

CD